Curse

Divineshadows · Mar 13, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

A sin's crit attribute simply gives the Sin a 2nd roll to crit (remember % chances do not stack).

What are you talking about? First you mention a "2nd roll" which suggests you are talking about the probabilities of independent events such as:

total % chance to crit = (% chance to crit based on critical strikes attribute) + ((100 - % chance to crit based on crit strikes) * (% chance to crit based on weapon mastery))

Then you talk about chances not stacking which suggests the game using a [max] function taking which of the two values is higher such as:

total % chance to crit = max[% chance to crit on crit strikes, % chance to crit based on weapon mastery]

I know for certain that the 2nd function is not the way the game works. The first function...maybe (though it may be just pure sum rather than independent event probabilities). Anyway, that comment I quoted is extremely confusing and self contradictory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

R/A have a higher dps and sustained dmg. Sin primaries have very low dps and sustained dmg. I was simply pointing out what would happen if they were to fix the 3 hit chains by increasing the dmg. It would make the sustained dmg and dps from a R/A even more powerful.

I've always felt that 13 crit strikes is great energy management (not quite as good as expertise but really damn close). Assassin primary allows the dagger mastery to go above 12 which adds more +damage to the attack skills. Assassin primary leaves an open secondary. Lastly, R/A has a really, really crappy twisting fangs. The bonus damage is really weak and the bleeding and deep wound wear off so fast that they are much less threatening. Having monked against R/A players is the only experience I've had in the game where I felt the length of time of the deep wound (in this case it being a mere 5 seconds) actually mattered.

If for any reason the energy from 13 crit strikes is not enough for an assassin primary, then the assassin could also bring critical strike (dual attack) to really put their energy over the top. Not seeing how a R/A would have "higher sustained DPS" at all.

Symbol · Mar 14, 2007, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

R/A have a higher dps and sustained dmg. Sin primaries have very low dps and sustained dmg. I was simply pointing out what would happen if they were to fix the 3 hit chains by increasing the dmg. It would make the sustained dmg and dps from a R/A even more powerful.

Totally wrong. Sin dps with 13 CS is substantially higher than a R/A due to dagger mastery runes and the much higher chance to critical. The only advantage the R/A has is expertise, which is overkill in most cases.

Patccmoi · Mar 14, 2007, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

R/A still have crits. I don't know where you got the idea that they didn't. Any points into a weapon attribute raises the chance for crits. A sin's crit attribute simply gives the Sin a 2nd roll to crit (remember % chances do not stack). With the dagger attribute you get a double strike chance, increased dmg, and a crit chance based on the attribute lvl.
.

I meant no crit strike, sorry for abreviation. Yes i know that weapon attribute gives something like 1.4% crit per level. I'm really really not sure about that 'second roll' part though, do you have hard fact on that? I'm pretty sure it's additive personally, it's not like -20% blind, it's 'increases critical chance by 1% per level'. If i have 20% crit, increasing this by 1% means that i have 21% crit, i really doubt it means that i now have 20.2% crit which would make it totally worthless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

R/A have a higher dps and sustained dmg. Sin primaries have very low dps and sustained dmg. I was simply pointing out what would happen if they were to fix the 3 hit chains by increasing the dmg. It would make the sustained dmg and dps from a R/A even more powerful.

Not really. The only way i could reach similar DPS and sustained damage playing R/A was by using Apply Poison. R/A offers better sustained damage only in the sense that they are less susceptible to be targetted because of better armor and sins might have to back faster if focused. If i want damage though, i always felt Assassins to be more powerful, you DO hit higher in general, and Crit Strike gives a LOT of energy to repeatedly do combo. And atm, there is some really key attack skills in the Critical Strike lines that don't work on R/A either (Twisting Fangs, Crit Strike, Unsuspecting Strike...). You also lose your secondary which can matter a lot (things like Mending Touch can be extremely useful for example, much more than Antidote Sig. Or a good IAS). And Deadly Arts are kinda unusable on R/A, things like Siphon Speed and Expose Defenses are too costy to spam, because R/A recharge energy very slowly, they just have cheap attack skills. Assassins on the other hand recharge energy incredibly fast instead, allowing them to use it for anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

You basicly proved my point for me with the Moebius strike comment. Moebius effectively gives you more attack skills to use. Try killing some one with a lead>off-hand>dual combo without moebius. Without being able to use Moebius to recharge everything so you can use it again or at leas 2 dual strikes in a combo you are not going to be killing anything.

Sins, because of their design flaw, are either going to be too weak or too strong. I don't think a middle ground will ever be found for this class.

I don't agree that they will be 'too weak or too powerful'. Sins still have the low armor weakness that allows you to pressure them out of the fight. Do you think Moebius Assassins are overpowered? Because i don't see at all how any buff to the lead/offhand combos can actually go higher DPS than that. Yet Moebius Sins don't totally dominate PvP, they're just a strong pressure option (a very viable one, finally).

Notice that my suggestion IS to buff the recharge of the Lead-Offhand-Dual combos so that you can use it over and over. Moebius doesn't actually kill in one combo either, it's just something you can use over and over to pressure. It would likely remain the highest pressure you can get, but good lead-offhand-duals could also allow to use other good utility elite, like Shattering Assault or Shadow Prison.

Symbol · Mar 14, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Speaking as someone who's been playing a lot of Moebius lately, I would seriously consider taking a lead attack even on a Moebius build. I find that the biggest single problem with moebius - death blossom is the recharge of the combo opener (BSS in this case). If I could take a lead that actually did something useful and that was on a short recharge, I would, because it makes the build more robust. This is what separates strong, versatile builds from gimmicks. That isn't to say that moebius builds are gimmicky now-but anything that makes a build less conditional and more flexible is a good thing in my book.

If Black Mantis Thrust was 5E, for example, something like BMS - wild - expose defenses starts to look really good. Perma cripple and stance removal on a 4s recharge is really good utility on a character meant to pressure at the stand.

Consider something like:
BMS - wild - moebius - death blossom - impale - expose defenses - dash - rez /other and compare to a dragon slasher. This character's damage starts higher than where the dslasher tops out, he carries a spammable snare, a speed boost, stance removal, a way to hit past block, and unlike most sin builds he can switch targets at will since everything is at a 4sec recharge or lower. As a bonus he has a free secondary, so if you want to make him more splittable you're free to take /Mo secondary for restful breeze or mending touch in place of rez. The strong snare and ability to remove speedboosts with wild means that he can lineback efficiently and the huge damage means that he's a serious threat to midline casters and frontliners alike. The only thing he lacks is damage compression for spiking and the armor to frequently overextend.

On the other hand, Black Spider Strike would still be attractive for the ability to do BSS - DB - impale as a really strong spike (better than frenzied evisc - exec - furious) at will on a hexed target, (excellent if you have enough other hexes in your build to keep several opponents hexed at once). It's these sorts of tradeoffs that are interesting rather than the current status quo of "take BSS/BLS because the only thing you care about is getting to your duals as quickly as possible".

To the skill balancers: Ask yourself one question when looking at the lead attacks-"Would I take this attack if it wasn't a combo opener?". If the answer is "no" then you need to buff.

Fortunately it doesn't take much to start making leads interesting. For example here is my minimal list of changes as opposed to Pat's wholesale rebalance:

* Black Mantis Thrust to 5E
* Leaping Mantis Sting to 5/.5/6
* Disrupting Stab to 5/.5/8

That's it. I like most of Pat's changes, but the above is what I'd be happy with.

djbartek · Apr 07, 2007, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Ok, so dagger attacks got changed a bit:
# Black Mantis Thrust: decreased Energy cost to 5.
# Dancing Daggers: increased damage to 5..35.
# Golden Lotus Strike: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds.
# Jagged Strike: increased Bleeding duration to 1..15, decreased recharge time to 1 second.
# Malicious Strike: increased damage to 10..30.

The only problem is that they didn't buff any offhand... Oh c'mon AN, just buff Jungle Strike and LMS to 4 sec recharge and you'll see how BMT-JS or LMS-JS will see a lot more play.

I have been pondering why they don't just buff them all (especially when this topic points out good changes

) and then see if they are used more, rather than buffing them partly

TheOneMephisto · Apr 07, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

I have been pondering why they don't just buff them all (especially when this topic points out good changes

) and then see if they are used more, rather than buffing them partly

Well, I don't think they want another ritualist channeling on their hands, so they're being careful, buffing little by little.

Symbol · Apr 07, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Well, I don't think they want another ritualist channeling on their hands, so they're being careful, buffing little by little.

It's hard to imagine how buffing the remaining leads/offhands could lead to anything as abusive as lamentation or even gaze. A.net is just being lazy. Though I loooooove Black Mantis Thrust - exhausting assault, so I forgive them.

djbartek · Apr 07, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Well, I don't think they want another ritualist channeling on their hands, so they're being careful, buffing little by little.

I just hope we won't have to wait till GWEN for all these updates

(AN isn't too fast when it comes to skill balancing, especially when they have only Izzy).

Alex the Great · Apr 09, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

All above need nerf, no reason a sin should kill a Warrior with 540 health in 3 skills as they can do now....no other class can do this so wy should sin? I don't play a warrior in PvP but i think it is silly to see a sin pop in on a tanks and kill it in 2 seconds and see 3 players gang up on a sin and can't touch it. I am actually thinking of making a sin in PvE since the last buffs they got (something I said I would never do)

sins were made by anet to be a spike.....quick damage with fragile armour.
BoA is efective but an easy counter for NOT NOOB teams.
3 players gang up and cant kill? only way that happens is flashing blads vs 3 non-spellcasters.........rangers do that also.